Questions...(fairly mature content)

[Momo-P]

Lately I feel so confused. I know God doesn't want us to plan for the future, but in the case of sin? I'm pretty sure God would rather us know what not to do for the future, rather than wait and accidently do something wrong...and that's what I'm doing.

Since 7th grade I've been with my boyfriend, and neither of us have any intention of leaving each other. We love each other very much, and even though I did some stuff with him on the internet earlier in our relationship, I've come to find that was wrong and stop it. He's fine with waiting until marriage to do anything and it makes me very happy. But now I only have a few years of highschool left and I can't help but think about things concerning marriage.

Birth control, certain sexual things...I start to wonder what's right and what's wrong. I really don't want children (I'm not a fan of little kids) but God also makes it very clear that if we lust for someone and love them so much, it's better to get married than let those feelings float around so we sin. So then I'm faced with a " Ok. I get married and have sex so I'm ok, but then I have to have a kid or else I can't have sex? But I don't want children!? " I mean...I don't know what to do. I would rather use birth control when I get married, not have some screaming poop machine. But nobody gives me an answer.

I've already talked to my parents about the birth control issue and both of them say it's fine. That many people had sex without having kids...but I still worry. I also worry about pleasing my husband. We're suppose to do that too, but what if he wants me to do something that God really doesn't talk about in the Bible? I mean...the Bible talks about how sex is suppose to "give it all" deal, but you're also suppose to take care of your body and stuff and...oi. I just worry.

I want answers and I can't find any. People just seem to pick their own answers and I don't want that...I want God's answer, but it's just not there. Earlier I was even crying because I was worried I wouldn't find my answer and then what would I do? Not get married? But then I'd be sinning...so I have to get married...but I don't want little kids either. I want to do things right but I just need God's answer...if anyone here could please keep me in their prayers that I find my answers I'd be so grateful.

[Slater]

Birthcontrol is an issue alright. My gf have considered it very seriously and come to this conclusion... It's a hairball.

The pill = bad on multiple levels
Surgery = even worse
Condoms = best, nothing wrong here
Coitus Interruptus = eh risky, but it works
Celebacy = Hey! Sex was made for marriage, not the other way around. You wouldn't be weird if you remained a virgin all your life, even in marriage.

Now, in the OT, there comes the issue of that guy named Onan. Read about him in... Genesis 38 I think. Lots of Christians use this story as a means to condemn birth control (coitus interruptus in this case), saying that God is against it. But that's not the core of this story. The woman had sex with him in hopes of becoming pregnant, and when Onan prevented that, it was equivalent to raping her. His sin wasn't birth control; it was hate for his brother and rape. So don't worry... sex with birth control, as long as it doesn't intentionally harm your body or kill an unborn human, isn't sinful.

Sorry if that didn't make a lot of sense. PM me and we can talk about it more when I'm not 20 seconds from crashing asleep at my keyboard... ^^;

And I'll be praying. These are all things that I've considered and lost a notable amount of sleep over, so I know it's not easy for you.

[ShiroiHikari]

How is the pill bad? O_o

[Slater]

the pill causes the woman's body to do a number of things. Of course, it depends on which form of the pill is being used. Sometimes it kills the eg or stops ovulation before it happens. Other times, the pill merely poisons the zygote after conception, which IMO is the worst thing that one can do and is on par with murder since a zygote is an unborn human being.

[Lochaber Axe]

[SPOILER]

• irregular menstrual bleeding
• nausea, weight gain, headaches, dizziness, and breast tenderness
• mood changes
• blood clots (rare in women under 35 who do not smoke)[/SPOILER]

Basically, this is all I've found. Quick google search ya know.

There are nothing wrong with contraceptives if used in marriage. If you don't want children now, that is all right. I don't want children now as well (though I am completely celibate to the point of no romantic attachments right now). Oh and about whether God wants you to have children right off the bat in marriage... God will never completely push you into any decision, he guides us to do his will. That was the entire reason for giving us free will.

He listens to our wants, and if that doesn't include children, then I expect no problems. Pray and fast about it and seek his wisdom foremost of course.

[ShiroiHikari]

I'd rather be on birth control than have a child I don't want...even in marriage :[ I wouldn't have the kind that kills. Just the kind that prevents conception from happening. (Hence the term "contraceptive".)

[spoiler="possible TMI"]Actually, they put me on birth control once because my cycle was messed up, and I'm supposed to still be taking it but circumstances prevent that >_o;;[/spoiler]

Condoms aren't good because they...just aren't very reliable, from what I'm told. (not like I know anything about these things firsthand.) I mean, they are a porous material aren't they? So stuff can still get through?

Honestly, I want to enjoy married life for a while before I have to worry about a baby. Not to mention that I'm really, really not ready for one. Should that mean I can't get married and enjoy the benefits? :\ Personally, I don't think so. I think it's more of a crime to have a bunch of kids that you know you're not ready for and don't want.

But...everybody has different convictions I guess.

[shooraijin]

the pill causes the woman's body to do a number of things. Of course, it depends on which form of the pill is being used. Sometimes it kills the eg or stops ovulation before it happens. Other times, the pill merely poisons the zygote after conception, which IMO is the worst thing that one can do and is on par with murder since a zygote is an unborn human being.

I'm sorry, this is absolute baloney.

The pill *can't* kill the egg. Period. Full stop.

It does prevent ovulation -- that's how it works. There's no egg to fertilize.

If someone knowingly remains on the pill while they're pregnant, yes, that's a problem -- that's why they're pregnancy drug class X -- but a theoretical one. There's been *no* evidence of effects to the baby while on birth control pills -- it's just not a good idea -- and if there had been, you can bet in this litigious climate it would have been off the market and swollen up in lawsuits decades ago. The woman who notices she skipped a period and has a pregnancy test which is positive, if she gets off the pill when that happens, there's no problem.

The grey area is Plan B, although she's not even talking about that. Plan B is an overdose of hormone, usually birth control pills, taken optimally up to 72 hours after unprotected sex. Most of the time this works just like a birth control pill -- ovulation doesn't occur, and nothing happens. Very rarely, there could be a fertilized embryo already, and Plan B will stop it from implanting. No one is sure how often this happens, though most estimates are very low. But she's not even talking about that.

There are so many misconceptions about birth control, which have been useful medications for other issues other than contraception, that it's shocking. Furthermore, asserting they're abortifacients is just flat out wrong. Cite me a clinical study that says otherwise.

Momo-P, I don't want kids either, and I *do* want to get married. With respectful disagreement to my Catholic brethren, I don't think there's any problem with birth control, and I don't think there's anything in the Bible that says all marriages must bear children -- and I have big issues with those Protestants who say birth control is okay, but you must have children. I wrote a whole essay about that here:

http://www.christiananime.net/showthread.php?p=554642#post554642

I do think that sex is a big part of marriage and that while it's obviously not the whole thing or even the majority, it's important. God wired us that way. But if you look at Song of Songs, which is by anyone's standard a eyebrow-raisingly erotic book, does the Beloved talk about what happens nine months later? They talk about their sexuality as physical, intimate companionship in a committed married relationship. That's what I'd like to have too.

I think you're thinking of the right things and concerns.

[ishy]

In birth control literature it says that even if an egg is fertilized, it can prevent the zygote from being implanted by the way it changes the lining of the uterus. If it happens when taking it late, then what's to say it's not happening a lot more when on the pill consistantly? Consider the percentage of pregencies that happen on the pill. If some .03% or so are likely to happen, then some are like prevented by keeping the zygote from being implanted as well.

Another doctor friend of mine did some research on it and calculated this to happen at the least every eight years if BC is used regularly. That's too high of a risk for me.

I already question a lot about the drug industry and what doctors are taught due to past experience.

[shooraijin]

That may look nice on paper, but personally speaking, I think the risk is tremendously overblown. What's logical has not necessarily been found to be true in life sciences. Your convictions and your call, of course. However, it would be extremely hard to prove.

As for me and my practise, I think the pill has done a tremendous amount of good and I'll still be writing prescriptions.

EDIT. One other thing to keep in mind that I didn't write -- we *do* know that a certain number of regular miscarriages are also failures of implantation, of otherwise presumably viable zygotes. The number can't be proven or exactly known, naturally, but this is demonstrable. You can't extrapolate that this otherwise natural occurrence is due to the pill when it's present, and the data isn't there to say that the occurrence occurs more frequently on the pill either.

I think it's remiss to deny something like this to women on a basis that depends on ultimately inductive reasoning, which isn't provable and may never be so.

[uc pseudonym]

Because Shooraijin is far more qualified than I in terms of the medical aspect, I'll take a completely different angle for this post.

Initially, I think I would recommend waiting a while prior to being married. People can change enormously during the post-highschool time, especially in terms of relationships. Paul's advice is sound, but I don't think that it should be applied in all cases without discretion. Some of those feelings that are "floating around" could evaporate in a few years.

In terms of "family planning" let me say this: my parents married fairly young but waited eight years before having me. This is something I have long been grateful for. Because they were older when they had children, they themselves were more mature and their relationship had become much more balanced and Christ-like. Some of my peers' parents aren't that much more mature than their children (and the age difference isn't really all that great), and their relationships with one another are still rocky.

I also worry about pleasing my husband. We're suppose to do that too, but what if he wants me to do something that God really doesn't talk about in the Bible? I mean...the Bible talks about how sex is suppose to "give it all" deal, but you're also suppose to take care of your body and stuff and...oi. I just worry.

I'm afraid you are going to have to be more specific. You can, of course, PM if you want to discuss anything with anyone more privately.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Be careful to assume that the evil pill with work everytime. If God wants you to have a baby you will. And the last thing we need is one less Christian to be raised up.

And didn't God tell us to be fruitful and multiply? And don't think He was only taking to Adama nd Eve.

Who knows. Maybe God will change the attitude when we actually do get married. At 16 you still ahve a number of years until you get married. I myself am afraid of having a baby... But I'm not gonna take a pill that makes the body work against nature... I'm not totlay sure on everything. I've heard that birth control is okay in only a few cases, such as poverty. But then, trust God.

And I'll be praying. These are all things that I've considered and lost a notable amount of sleep over, so I know it's not easy for you.

Same here.

[Steeltemplar]

I believe that contraception is a violation of the sanctity of the sexual aspect of marriage. Intercourse is, to my mind, supposed to posess fully both the unitive and procreative aspects (love/intimacy and the act of possibly creating new life). To remove either of those aspects is to harm the sanctity of the act.

I will readily admit that my opinion is based upon the teachings of the Catholic Church, as I am Catholic myself. But I never liked contraception, even when I was a Protestant. It always seemed to me a barrier to full intimacy. Through Church teachings I simply found a better understanding.

I am not going to try to hold any non-Catholic to my beliefs here. If you are a Protestant and believe contraception is fine, then I am not condemning you. But advice was asked for and so I am giving my perspective on it.

[Arnobius]

Re: the pill: the reason it is condemned by those who condemn contraception is that it is known to occasionally cause the uterus to reject a fertilized egg from implanting. If you consider life as beginning at conception, it logically follows that this side effect of the Pill must be considered an abortifacent. Otherwise we go down the slippery slope of "How many months is abortion acceptable for."

Some things to consider on the contraception debate: Until 1930 ALL churches condemned contraception as immoral. In 1930, the Lambeth Conference of the Anglicans gave limited approval, and it snowballed from there, until now most denominations think it is a right. Unfortunately from contraception being a right, now many congregations support abortion as acceptable.

Before 1930, both procreation and mutual love between the spouses were seen as goods. Now, sex is about pleasure while procreation... the purpose of the reproductive systems... is seen as something to avoid.

I'm not going to condemn people here. But I don't want people to misunderstand us who oppose contraception either. So I've provided a couple of links to show Church teaching. Those who are interested can get our Church teaching directly from the source and not from rumors. People not interested can feel free to ignore them.

Castii Conubii (Written in response to the 1930 Lambeth Conference mentioned above)

Humanae Vitae (Written in response to the development of "The Pill")

Evangeleium Vitae (Written as a defense of Life against abortion and the anti-life mentality)

[Nate]

AnimeHeretic brings up a good point, that all of the major Protestant theologians thought birth control was a horrendously sinful thing.

Obviously, I disagree with that thought...but it is worth noting that yes, birth control was not considered acceptable by any Christian denomination until the 1930s.

I personally don't want kids, and I'm 25...I'm not opposed to having them, just that if it was up to me, I wouldn't want any.

I'd say that the condom is the best bet, though not 100% effective, it is far better IMO than other methods.

There is also vasectomies, which probably can't be discussed in too much detail on this thread, but I see that as an acceptable alternative as well.

[Slater]

vasectomies and tuboligations are not acceptable forms of birth control. The reason why that is a sinful method to take is because it is the intentional destroying of part of our bodily systems. We are supposed to keep our bodies as complete as possible, even in those areas where we don't think we need what we get rid of.

Of course, there are times when such surgeries that prevent pregnancy need to be done. A friend of mine needed to a hysterectomy in order to save her own life. In such a case, it would be better to take such a course, but it would be wrong for anyone to mistreat that which God has entrusted to us (our earthly bodies) just so that we may have fun and not have to worry about children.

As for the pill thing, it may be somewhat rare for the pill to work abortivly like that, but, as Christians, that is not a risk that any of us are entitled to take. It would be far better to not use birth control at all (or not have sex even) than to risk killing a human being.

[starfire]

Of course, there are times when such surgeries that prevent pregnancy need to be done. A friend of mine needed to a hysterectomy in order to save her own life. In such a case, it would be better to take such a course, but it would be wrong for anyone to mistreat that which God has entrusted to us (our earthly bodies) just so that we may have fun and not have to worry about children.

Isn't that too convenient, that it's acceptable when it's a medical emergency, but wrong for every other reason?
It seems to me just as wrong to have a child you don't even want, (talking about contraceptives, not abortion) and aren't going to be ready for. Yes, God is amazing and he can work all things out for the greater good. But, I believe that not everyone is called to be a parent. And even those who are, at certain times. I can't imagine him wanting you to have children when you don't feel called to. How would that be beneficial?
In my opinion, birth control, in marriage, isn't wrong more than any other medical treatment out there. I've seen girls even younger than myself become mothers. Parenthood outside of God's will just doesn't go well. I respect those who feel differently about it and stick to their convictions. This is merely mine.

[SonicRose]

The Pill - Forget what it does to the baby, just take ANY birth control pill and look at the list of SIDE EFFECTS that it MAY have. Isn't that alone reason enough to NOT take it?

And it pains me to hear you women talking about not wanting children! I understand that not everyone's meant to be a parent for one reason or another; but think about this...

You don't own your body. You're renting it from God.

Our Bodies are Temples to the Lord. I wouldn't consider mutilating it using surgery. (I do believe that reconstructive surgeries are justifiable, but things like vassectamies, brest implants etc. are immoral). Likewise, I wouldn't take anything I suspected to be harmful on a regular basis because I don't want a child.

Stop thinking about your own convenience. What about what GOD wants?

No form of Birth Control; aside celibacy, is 100% effective. You may not WANT a child, but I know friends who've slipped past birth contol. Why? Because God wanted that baby conceived. David wrote God Knit him in his mother's womb. God Created us all, and if you find yourself Pregnant; Rejoice! You are a part of bringing a new life into the world. Part of the purpose of marriage is to create Goddly Offspring.

Just think about all the kids growing up with parents that don't care about them; you know the ones. You see the out of control brats screaming their heads off in super markets, running around wild, who have no respect for authority. Don't you wants BETTER than that for the children?

Children are expensive, inconvenient, selfish, messy, endlessly fickle...

...But you were one, I was one. I want one. Sure, I wanna be with my husband a while before we have a child; we're planning on using condoms; knowing that they fail about 15% of the time (According to statistics I looked at). I think you'd be better off if you kept in mind that nothing happens by accident. Just read your biology books on how life begins and tell me it isn't miraculous.

Let's say you get married and use birth control and STILL wind up pregnant...

You need to be prepared for the consequences of sex, no matter how 'safe' you think you are. As we grow up and mature; we acquire more and more responsibility; a child is an ultimate responsibility in this life.

You may also change how you feel - My dad tells me my biological Mom wanted me sometimes, and sometimes not. He was the one who consistantly wanted a child. He got divorced and married the woman I today, call Mom. I love her dearly; and she was the one WILLING to raise me. That's worth more than the genes my biological mom contributed to me; far more. Be willing to be a mother, and your husband, a father.

[ShiroiHikari]

The Pill - Forget what it does to the baby, just take ANY birth control pill and look at the list of SIDE EFFECTS that it MAY have. Isn't that alone reason enough to NOT take it?

Plenty of other meds have adverse side effects too, even simple things like Advil...what makes this one so much worse?

And it pains me to hear you women talking about not wanting children! I understand that not everyone's meant to be a parent for one reason or another; but think about this...

You don't own your body. You're renting it from God.

Yeah, but what about free will?

Having a baby you KNOW you're not ready for is worse, to me. You can't take that baby back to the baby store-- you're stuck with it for the rest of your life.

I know that I'm not good with children and I don't want to be responsible for bringing someone into this world and ruining its life because I wasn't ready to raise them.

[SonicRose]

Plenty of other meds have adverse side effects too, even simple things like Advil...what makes this one so much worse?

Because it's not neccessary. As a rule, I take medication only when needed. It's not like you take Advil every day of the rest of your life.

Yeah, but what about free will?

Having a baby you KNOW you're not ready for is worse, to me. You can't take that baby back to the baby store-- you're stuck with it for the rest of your life.

I know that I'm not good with children and I don't want to be responsible for bringing someone into this world and ruining its life because I wasn't ready to raise them.

Then put the child up for adoption. It's legal to abandon your baby at a police station or hospital FYI. Also, NOONE feels like they're ready when they have kids.

Did you ever feel like you wanted to go to school? You HAD to. Did it matter if you were ready for a test or not? God tests us too.

[Arnobius]

Isn't that too convenient, that it's acceptable when it's a medical emergency, but wrong for every other reason?

No. This is not an excuse. In cases like they hyresectomy or an ecoptic pregnancy, the intent is to remove the damaged organ, not to practice contraception. The effect of the loss of uterus (and fertility) in the first case, or the loss of the child in the second is NOT intended. It is a regrettable incident that must be done to save the life of the mother. It is QUITE different than contracepting to avoid (vague or undefined) possible problems. In medicine, you treat the diseased or damaged organ, not mutilate an undamaged organ.

It seems to me just as wrong to have a child you don't even want, (talking about contraceptives, not abortion) and aren't going to be ready for. Yes, God is amazing and he can work all things out for the greater good. But, I believe that not everyone is called to be a parent. And even those who are, at certain times. I can't imagine him wanting you to have children when you don't feel called to. How would that be beneficial?

If I may... if one is not responsible enough to have children, what makes you think they're responsible enough to get married? One in two marriages end in divorce. I think that one must be ready to have children in marriage... In contraception, we put the pleasure of the act as the main intention. Procreation is the natural outcome for the sexual act. But we are treating it like a disease. Selfishness replaces the mutual love intended in marriage. If one is not called to have children, I strongly doubt that person is called to marriage which requires giving of ones self to another selflessly.

In my opinion, birth control, in marriage, isn't wrong more than any other medical treatment out there. I've seen girls even younger than myself become mothers.

So have I. It is unfortunate they got pregnant, but the fact is they were misusing the marital act for their own ends. Contraception in this case is merely refusing to take responsibility for one's actions. You say contraception is just another medical treatment. I know people of denominations who say the same thing about abortion, and I have heard many people justify abortion on the same grounds that you justify contraception with these girls... and if contraception fails, then these girls would be in the same situation.

Parenthood outside of God's will just doesn't go well. I respect those who feel differently about it and stick to their convictions. This is merely mine.

I agree parenthood ouside of God's will doesn't go well. Therefore we need to respect the marital act as God created it: Respecting the procreative aspect as much as the unitive. Realizing that God intended marriage to be open to new life. Otherwise we see the cheapening of the act until it's just something that feels good.

[Arnobius]

Yeah, but what about free will?

Having a baby you KNOW you're not ready for is worse, to me. You can't take that baby back to the baby store-- you're stuck with it for the rest of your life.

I know that I'm not good with children and I don't want to be responsible for bringing someone into this world and ruining its life because I wasn't ready to raise them.

The sad part about this argument is that it is also used by many to justify abortion.

Free will means you have choices. It also means you have RESPONSIBILITIES. If you believe you will not be good with children, you need to be aware that marriage does lead to them. Now does responsibility in that case mean taking part in a behavior that will eventually lead to pregnancy (no birth control is 100% effective), or does it mean choosing to live a life without sex to make sure you do not have a child you cannot care for?

[Nate]

I see birth control outside of marriage as sinful. Simply because outside of a marriage, the only purpose sex could have is to "feel good." Birth control is an attempt to get rid of the consequences of breaking God's commandment to not have sex outside of marriage (along with STDs).

HOWEVER, if in the context of a marriage, and BOTH partners agree (for a marriage is a union of two people, both equally important), I see nothing wrong with birth control, so long as it is a mutual decision.

Perhaps there is a medical reason for not wanting children (I know my aunt has a very serious medical condition that is genetic, and she did not want her kids to have to suffer with it). Perhaps there is a financial reason.

By the way, adoption sounds nice, but a lot of adopted kids are in for a world of hurt. Many (not all, but a few) wonder why their real parents abandoned them. Why they were left behind. This can lead to feelings of worthlessness and "I'm incapable of being loved, that's why they gave me up." Then one day 20 years later you find someone on your doorstep and they say, "I'm your kid. I've spent my whole life trying to find you. Why didn't you want me?" Not too pleasant, I'm sure.

At any rate, I think this has turned from discussing the major denominational beliefs on birth control into an argument attacking each other's personal convictions. I don't condemn any of you for saying birth control is bad, but don't condemn those of us who think birth control is acceptable either.

[starfire]

If I may... if one is not responsible enough to have children, what makes you think they're responsible enough to get married? One in two marriages end in divorce. I think that one must be ready to have children in marriage... In contraception, we put the pleasure of the act as the main intention. Procreation is the natural outcome for the sexual act. But we are treating it like a disease. Selfishness replaces the mutual love intended in marriage. If one is not called to have children, I strongly doubt that person is called to marriage which requires giving of ones self to another selflessly.

I don't necessarily agree. If one is not called to be celibate, it's a bad idea. Watch the news to see examples of that. However, I think there are some people who are called to be married but not have children. Not having children is not a sin. Children are a blessing, but so is the mission field. Not everyone is called to that. Each person has to listen to God, and not their own personal agenda.


And Sonic Rose, basically what you're saying is that rather than take the pill or have an outpatient procedure, you should have a child you do not want or love and give him/her up? Believe it or not, that's psychologically damaging. I would know. My biological "father" wrote the book on leaving when something gets too hard. I'm glad my parents had me, but it was only by God's grace that things worked out. Not because of any wisdom on his part.

[Arnobius]

The difference seems to be though that some are appealing to reason and morality and others to emotion. Emotional responses are not acceptable. Actions are either ok or they are not. If theft is wrong, I don't have a right to rob you because I'm hungry.

With the issue of contraception, it needs to be addressed without making emotional appeals about pregnant teenagers. it is either acceptable or it is not in the eyes of God. If it is acceptable, then those opposed can only be called unusually rigorous. If it is NOT aceptable, then we have a crisis of people doing evil in God's name.

So we need to see some rational arguments as to why contraception is OK when it was condemned from the beginning of Christianity until 1930.

<EDIT>
Starfire: What you say evades the issue: The sexual act is one that needs to be treated responsibly. Those who cannot care for a child have no business engaging in sexual activity, because no contraception is 100% effective. Sometime it will fail. So if one relies on contraception, and is sexually active, they will have to deal with pregnancy eventually. If this person cannot care for a child, then this person has behaved irresponsibly

[Shao Feng-Li]

Parenthood outside of God's will just doesn't go well. I respect those who feel differently about it and stick to their convictions. This is merely mine.

I'm kind of led to believe that it's ALL God's will.

If you can't stand little kids even though you were one, raise your kid so it's not a little brat.

You'll wind up pregnant if God wants you too, regardless of any form of birth control. See stop trying to take control and let God do it. You'll have a baby or you won't; it's up to Him. There's no point in hurting your body for such a reason. And it's been said, put the child up for adoption- God forbid...

No one is rady for a child okay? Everyone no matter how many lessons they've had, are not ready or prepered to have a baby. It's something you learn as you go along the more you have the better you know. My mom knows all about it. She has four of us. So that's not a very good excuse...

[starfire]

<EDIT>
Starfire: What you say evades the issue: The sexual act is one that needs to be treated responsibly. Those who cannot care for a child have no business engaging in sexual activity, because no contraception is 100% effective. Sometime it will fail. So if one relies on contraception, and is sexually active, they will have to deal with pregnancy eventually. If this person cannot care for a child, then this person has behaved irresponsibly

I was commenting on a part of Sonic Rose's post. I made my opinion on the other pretty clear already. It's an issue that people will never agree on, and truly a matter of personal conviction.

edit: one more thing. By driving in a car, there's probably more of a chance you will get into an accident than of your getting pregnant by having protected sex. Does that mean that you don't drive safely, you just walk everywhere? no. You accept the possibilities and use wisdom.

and, adoption is not quite as much of a cut and dry issue as some seem to believe. It can be very confusing, and should not be approached so lightly.

[Nate]

and, adoption is not quite as much of a cut and dry issue as some seem to believe. It can be very confusing, and should not be approached so lightly.

Thank you, star. And I fail to see how adoption is less of a copout of parental responsibility than any form of birth control.

[Arnobius]

I was commenting on a part of Sonic Rose's post. I made my opinion on the other pretty clear already. It's an issue that people will never agree on, and truly a matter of personal conviction.

replace contraception with abortion. Do you still agree with what you just said? Because people are using those same words you are to justify that.

edit: one more thing. By driving in a car, there's more of a chance you will get into an accident than of your getting pregnant by having protected sex. Does that mean that you don't drive safely, you just walk everywhere? no. You accept the possibilities and use wisdom.

and, adoption is not quite as much of a cut and dry issue as some seem to believe. It can be very confusing, and should not be approached so lightly.

False argument with the car, completely missing my point. A child is not an "accident," it is the natural result of the marital act. With the car, you are required to drive safely, and not do things that cause an accident. Using this as an analogy, contraception is people insisting on airbags and armor and other things to prevent personal consequences from having an accident.

I agree adoption is a hard thing. Hence my calling on people to respect the procreative power in the marital act.

[Steeltemplar]

I don't necessarily agree. If one is not called to be celibate, it's a bad idea. Watch the news to see examples of that. However, I think there are some people who are called to be married but not have children. Not having children is not a sin. Children are a blessing, but so is the mission field. Not everyone is called to that. Each person has to listen to God, and not their own personal agenda.


And Sonic Rose, basically what you're saying is that rather than take the pill or have an outpatient procedure, you should have a child you do not want or love and give him/her up? Believe it or not, that's psychologically damaging. I would know. My biological "father" wrote the book on leaving when something gets too hard. I'm glad my parents had me, but it was only by God's grace that things worked out. Not because of any wisdom on his part.

I'm sorry, but I really cannot see one being called to be married and yet not be called to at least be open to children. Of course, some people marry and do not have children for natural reasons (medical problems, what have you). But it is clear that the family is an important aspect of the way God has created the marital relationship. Why else would the act which unifies husband and wife be the very same act as the one which creates children? God would not have made the reproductive act so important to a marital relationship if he wanted some people to be married and not have children.

If some people are called, as you say, to be married and not have children, what did those people do before there was effective contraception?

[Nate]

EDIT: Never mind. Ignore this post. ><

EDIT 2: Though some may argue with me (and probably will, and will probably give me a thousand reasons why I'm "wrong"), I would say that there are a great deal more verses dealing with abortion, in both clarity and quantity, than there are regarding birth control. This is why I believe that contraception, unlike abortion, is a matter of personal conviction, simply due to the lack of concrete evidence.